Bashr52
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Thu Feb 25, 5:31 am
I've run across a Sioux 645 valve grinder for a decent price. It hasn't run in a while, but its complete minus the drive motor. Anyone have any experience with them and know about parts availability and/or quality of the machine. It's being offered to me for under $150.
KROC
Thu Feb 25, 8:49 am
Hi you will have terrible concentricity and repeatability as it is, First the grinding stone is fixed to a shaft on the electric motor, so if the bearings in the motor are sloppy ( which most are ) you will have issues, so new motor shaft bearings for sure. ( I guess if you get a nice tight new drive motor you will be good to go there.
Then there is the 3 ball collet setup that is horrible, you will never cut a valve that doesn't have run out....
You will have to replace that 3 ball check assembly with an Accu-Chuck from Lacey Williams.
http://www.laceymwilliams.com/chuck.html
Do some Googling around on the 645, it can be made to work well but it wont be cheap.
I was fortunate to get one from an old dood, that had it as a home shop unit with very low miles, I added the Accu-Chuck, and it works very well in keeping valve run-out to a minimum
cheers
mark tucker
Thu Feb 25, 12:02 pm
yup the 3 ball chuck can be off as can all chuicks.but Ive had them cut round too, it kinda depends on who ran the machine and how they took care of it. always flush out the chuck to keep grindings out of it witch cause the wear and non concentrick valves. is it worth it??? thats up to you. also look on flebay&gregs list. Ive had my personal valvegrinder for over 30 years now . and it sees very little usage, and cuts the best Ive ever seen. it's an old snappon unit that had very little usage when I got it.if memory serves me right it's a winnona...but ....cant remember for sure.Ive used many different units over the years.I dont like the way it's set up to use but....it does such a good job and I use it so little I dont mind( I have to retrain my self to use it everytime I use it.) I did like the kwick way better then the souix we hadd at the machine shop,mostly easyer and better than the suix as it was needing a rebuild.if I needed to down size some valves I would do it in the soux and then final grind on the kwickway. we didnt have a small lathe just a houngmoungus one & I didnt like trying to do small stuff on it. and stems can be effed up eazely.
so do your home work.there should be lots of valve grinders out there as nobody wants to do anything any more, easyer to put in new stuff and make $ on the markup. like break lathes, holy shit Ive seen around a hundrad brake lathes for sale lately, everybody is just buying china rotors instead of reserfacing.
Air Cooleds Only
Sat Mar 05, 2:35 pm
I have a Sioux Valve grinder. It's old but seems to be in relativity decent shape.
I have a background in machining and usually things don't baffle me, but the chuck on this machine is.
It has the tapper roller chuck, which I understand isn't the best.
Since I'm getting familiar with this machine, I have been indicating the valve stem in within .-.".
Ill grind the angle, then indicate . Runs out within ..
For the hell of it I turn the valve a 1/4 or 1/2 a turn, Indicate the stem again within .-., then recheck the 45 I just cut. Now I can get anything from .001-.003 runout. :shock:
If I keep turning it and checking it , I'll get something different every time . :evil:
I get that the accu-chuck is the way to go.
I figured if I indicated each valve Id end up with a nice piece.
Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks.
Chris
modok
Sat Mar 05, 5:17 pm
Overtightening the chuck makes it WORSE, so don't do that, just use light pressure. On the one I ran it worked best biting the valve as the lever was straight up or a little less, but that may vary from one to another.
The tapered part where the TIP goes can be a wear item, clean it out and look closely and see how bad it is in there, you might need a new one if it has a lot of use. Your supposed to tip and chamfer the tip, making the chamfer at least .020 wide so it does not cut into the taper, before facing the valve, but I'm sure this gets overlooked sometimes. Heck I'm guilty too.
The three ball chuck can work very well but it has a lot of moving parts and a lot of potential to get a spec of dust in it and be off.
When you go to put a valve in it you must adjust the chuck, try this: if you tighten it, with left hand applying some light force to the lever, you can ROLL the balls in the chuck as it tightens. Roll them to another position. So what I would do is pick a good looking valve, and chuck it up, and touch it to the grinding stone. If it seemed to have a lot of runout I'd loosen the chuck and ROLL it again as I tightened. Try again. Usually, once or twice and it would get off whatever spec of dust was in there, or get the balls sitting right or who knows what, and after that I could reface a few heads worth of valves and they'd all be under .001" runout.
I bet your thinking if I started with a tweaked valve it would be impossible, but not really. If it hits the same spot every time you know it's straight. Or, a simpler explanation of this whole procedure relating to the chuck:
If it's not working right, screw with it till it starts working right.
If it is working ok, leave it alone.
Runout on the valve face is not generally a problem. Of course we all will strive to get it down to .001" or less, but even .002" is good enough for most things. Or, you could say, if runout is below .001, then I am sure the other aspects are what should be looked at. Desired angle, good finish, and actually making a true "circle" or more correctly "cone shape"
At the same time this machine was popular so were centerless grinders, but guess what, with the centerless design if the valve stem is not a perfect circle then the face won't be either. With top quality new valves there should be nothing to worry about but.... The 12$ a piece valves we are all running, how good you think those stem are to begin with? I think I can SEE some wave in it at arms length. LOL
So, I think it's a good machine. It's more accurate than the parts you are using it for then it's great. Check the seat runout on some used heads for perspective if you think I'm exaggerating.
Air Cooleds Only
Mon Mar 07, 9:42 am
Thanks modok! If I'm understanding this right there is another clamping feature in the bottom of the chuck (steam end)? Some of these valves have a .04+ chamfer on them , could that be f-in with me too?
I'll give the chuck a more thorough inspection. I already changed the rollers from an older machine I have. They seem to be running more true then the ones it came with. I polished the inside of the cone and did a little de-burring in a couple spots.
mark tucker
Mon Mar 07, 9:59 am
there is also a stop in there that may be effing with you.it needs to be set so it dosent try to clamp in the groove. flush out the chuck everytyme you use it so that the grindings&stoneware dosent buildup and eat stuff.
modok
Mon Mar 07, 5:34 pm
maybe it's a different model but I'm pretty sure......
There should be a about....3/4 diameter rod that adjusts in and out of the back side of the chuck. It has a tapered ID hole in it which holds the tip (stem end) of the valve. i think this is to stabilize it a little and also help get it clamped straight. you might call it a "depth stop', tho they call it the "aligner bar"
You adjust this in and out to get the valve the right stick-out from the chuck.
once set, each valve will be the same distance out. This makes it easy to do one after another. Once done grinding one valve turn the right hand wheel exactly one turn to back off the grinding stone, then when you put the next valve in you know when it's gonna hit, about one turn in. Sure helps when doing a 24 valve engine!
.040 chamfer is ok, trouble is if the tips are too sharp it could eat up this back piece over time. If the chamfer is cut by hand and not concentric it will throw it off. Hopefully you have the chamfering attachment.
here is the instructions, see figure 7 the "aligner bar"
http://www.woodwardequipment.com/documents/Sioux_Manuals/Sioux_.pdf
mark tucker
Tue Mar 08, 12:18 pm
yes that 3/4" bar/rod morlock is talking about is what I was reffering to. Ive seen guys that have been using those machines for years that didnt know how to properly use it. and 90% dont know what the chamfering tool is or how to use it. many also have a rocker&lifter reserfacing attqachment. some lifters can be reserfaced with the same part as the stem end machining portion, that may depend on the piticular machine.
Air Cooleds Only
Tue Mar 08, 12:59 pm
That manual is correct for the machine I'm using. Thanks for digging that up!
I'll douche the chuck , and clean it real nice next time I use it & see how the repeat ability is . I do have the chamfer and rocker attachment. Haven't tried resurfacing a ratio rocker yet, that will be for another day...
58ragman
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Wed Mar 09, 8:18 pm
souix valve grinders are junk period had 3 of them .they all have these little offset metal pieces in there like 3 forgot what they are called but they trap the valve stem in there not nearly as good as a kwik way valve grinder.
I got a KWIK way svs 2 d way superior it has a total indicated run out of ." thats right ." the souix is in the .00 arena if your lucky brand new and most used ones need lots of work to bring up to snuff.
call up any kwik way dealer or better yet call any high end machin shop not a vw but high end chevy dodge that builds 50k dollar motor who get extremely anal if the valves or what ever if its not spot on or read up on a kwik way valve grinder the research alone will bring you up to par.
I too before getting a kwik way was on the wagon for a valve grinder and came across several souix for 500 bucks 700 bucks and bucks after buying all of them and spending nearly 500 on each to get them working and never close to what i wanted.
i ended up getting a kwik way for 8,000 dollars.
I can grind the valve pull it out slap it in again and grind it perfect on a nats ass regardless if the valve was in 1 inch or sticking out 3 inches.
you can't do that on a souix
souixs grind oblong making you think the valve is bent when really it is the eccentrics and the holding tool in the souix machine
modok
Thu Mar 10, 12:53 am
kwik way sold this very same valve grinder too.
Sioux just put their name on it, it may also say craftsman.
nsracing
Tue Mar 15, 10:04 am
For people who have never used a Sioux valve grinder should refrain from comments.
First of all, the Sioux chucking system is the best on the market. I have owned them all. I have several model 680s and 2 ea model s, and 1ea (latest and most expensive).
The chuck holds the stem in the non-worn part closest to the valve head. And the tail, after you dressed it and proper bevel is held in the V-shape. This is the most accurate chucking system out there to date.
All the rest of grinders out there have chucking/collet system that grabs to the stem directly. If it is a new valve, it will grind true. But worn valves since held w/ a taper on the stem will grind offset. This where the Sioux is unique. The chucking system grabs in two places.... one by the valve head and the other by the tail. So in essence, the valve stem is 'hanging' by the ends and hence gives the most accurate grind. It is like machining or grinding something between centers. YOu cannot get more accurate than that.
The 645 model is old. I had one too and hard to find belts for it. You can hang any motor on it w/ the proper speed.
The model 680s -on later are the best ones to get. But for $100 or so, the 645 is good for the money. I will put any Sioux grinder against all the others for accuracy. By the way, Snap-On bought Sioux and they have the same model configuration as the grinder.
nsracing
Tue Mar 15, 10:21 am
All Sioux grinders will chuck this way. See how the 3 finger collets will grab the valve stem by the valve and the V-shape holder in the tail.
So basically, you chuck the front and then move the tail holder forward to the back of the valve stem. Minimal hold means the most accurate holding system around.
For people in the old school machining they would know what minimal-hold does to the workpiece relative to minimizing warpage when the piece is held in place.
Wasted youth
Thu Jun 30, 6:32 pm
I have no experience in this field, but am interested.
:?: it seems to me grinding a valve is only half the job. What part of these machines grind the seat?
Or, said another way, how do we address a worn valve seat with a re-ground valve in our hand?
modok
Thu Jun 30, 6:47 pm
Many ways have been devised to grind/cut a valve seat.
Acceptable ways
-piloted grinding stone dressed to angle, used wet or dry (sioux/black and decker/and more)
-eccentric grinder (hall-Toledo)
-single carbide cutter dead pilot, (sunnen /torben arp/quickway)
-single carbide cutter, live pilot (Serti, MIRA)
-single point CNC newen fixed-tirning
Semi-acceptable ways, to be used post appocolypse, (gotta outrun reavers!)
lapping, lots of lapping.
single angle HSS antique narrowing thingies
neway cutters
chinese version of neway cutters
mark tucker
Thu Jun 30, 6:50 pm
the seat grinder witch isant part of the valve grinder.
you need an assortmantt of stones ,pilots, dressor,&driver,springs,guide brushes & a few other peices to do the seats. they can also be done on a seat&guide machine (witch i do with mulite angle&raidi carbide cutter made for highperformance& much better flow , driven with a 3d ball system, but I always stone the seats with the finest stones for the final seat serface. all in all it gets kinda expensive, but if you want it done right do it your self :shock: well for me any way. it's real to effup a set of heads if you do not know what your doing.....Ive see a lot of stuff come out of shops that was pure shit...but they dont know.
Ive used a lot of grinders, many souix,a few kwickway,my snappon (winona as I recall) and a few others. I checked about 8 of them around town one year....mine was by far the best in every way....but of corse mine had very few hours usage even though it was made in the 70's. our old trusty souix was amoung the worst. our kwickway was 2nd best. then the one at another speed shop that I ran at night& weekends, then the others were other machine shops.witch were not that bad but they never got the chuck cleaned out(witch is probably what killed the chuck in the souix we had, I used it for valves that were to be cut down and then finished on the kwickway for the machine shop I ran.(the snappon is my personal machine and will stay that way till I die, just like many other machines I have )
Wasted youth
Fri Jul 01, 3:10 am
Thanks. More to read... 8)
vwinnovator
Fri Jul 01, 4:36 am
I have a snap-on unit(no pun)
the machine is heavy, takes up space, collects a lot of dust.
If you were to do mass production of valve refacing, it might pay for itself over a couple years....
Avg cost is$500
If your only looking to do a few valves though, it's more cost effective to have a shop reface and tip them, then to tie up a chunk of bench space....
I usually charge $2.50ea. only do the intakes though. replace your exhaust valves (some exceptions, :wink: )
however, valves are relatively cheap to buy new these days....
now valve seat cutting tools are a much better investment..you'll use them more often
mark tucker
Fri Jul 01, 10:42 am
my shop is full, but I would rather have a machine I use 1 time a year than get effed up parts from somebody that 1 dosent care,2 dosent know, 3 dosent take care of the machines,4 , may be drunk.5, wont be what I want.
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